

#### Kerg

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:32]
with church heading toward tending only to the members of the church, Dee felt as though he was leaving behind large swaths of people

This is something my Dad's been fighting the dioscese on about as long as he's been a Priest.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:34]
Yeah, I think the root of Dee's struggle is reconciling a doctrine of grace with what he sees in the world as a therapist.

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:35]
Yeah. That's... Mm. I've talked with my dad about a lot of that too. It's something I know a lot of Orthodox people around our age struggle with.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:36]
Yeah, I think some of Evangelism and its effects in the wider Christian faith nudged folks back to the more Calvinist "you need to be a believer to receive help", and the current generation is very much struggling to buy into that.

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:41]
My cousin is Trans. My dad was... not great at it for a while. I pushed that button hard cause I was having none of his behavior towards her.

Now, we have a trans girl that wants to join the church. He went to his bishop last month and basically told him, if you don't let me bring her in, I'll leave. So. He's come a long long way. 

But man, I think there's not enough of people like him sometimes.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:44]
Yeah, folks like that don't seem super common, unfortunately x.x

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:46]
I grew up in this weird like, in-between. Where sometimes I was allowed to be a kid, othertimes I had to be this perfect little angel, othertimes I had to be like, political and know that doing x would impact my Dad with y. And tons of fancy dinners I had to attend.

As I say with any PK I ever meet: Same Trauma. :D

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:52]
"God is always a part of my life, and yet is apart from it. I do not subscribe to many of the modern evangelical takes on religion, wherein god is within you, but something far more conservative and old-fashioned. God is beside me, perhaps. Above me. He is with me, but not within me."

I really, really like this. And this is a lot of how the Orthodox theology is. God walks with you. We do say that people are living Icons of Christ/God (Trinitarian stuff where you can say one and mean all three parts of the godhead, yaaay) So like, mistreating and harming someone else IS directly doing that to God in a sense.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:52]
PK?

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:53]
Priest Kid. Or for a lot of evangelicals, Pastor's kid

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:53]
Aha!

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:55]
I should have known, actually. One of my favorite albums recently is that. Specificity intensely queer singer struggling with having been raised a Preacher's Kid.

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:56]
O o f

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:56]
[In reply to Kerg]
Yeah, there's a ton of super interesting (to me, at least) writing about this and I'm very into it ^^

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:56]
[In reply to Kerg]
It actually topped the Christian music charts, weirdly. I think a lot of folks found it touching a lot of very important nerves

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:58]
https://open.spotify.com/album/20lA7mlCMab9U1jhRusPEI?si=tjdTnXDVSZWQsXmm4_VCbw&utm_source=copy-link (will have to dig to find it on YouTube, tho)

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:59]
I... I've never come out to my parents as being... not quite straight. And I think part of it is like, how can I do it without the words of what I am I find satisfactory? 

But also like, they both read my novel draft where I put myself into the characters quite a bit and one of them is questioning his sexuality from being gay to being maybe straight? Or at least liking both? Huh? 

And like, I think that's a pretty good indication too?

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:00]
Yeah, I very much get that. I never came out to my dad, but he still came to my wedding and was obviously not surprised at all c.c

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:01]
Sorry, I don't get to like, feel like I can talk about some of this stuff all the time cause Religion is like... hard not to find people with bad faith intentions sometimes so I'm sorta relishing being able to do that

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:02]
This is very, very much up my alley (or at least one of them), so I'm incredibly happy to talk about it, even though I still have so much to learn

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:04]
"Now that I write this and think about her comment, though, I do wonder: the administration of the seminary let me go with surprising ease. The attempts to keep me along the path to the clergy were faint at best, and I was able to simply walk away from the vocation with little impact to my standing within my own congregation and essentially no strife from the seminary itself.

Why was this? In a church whose adherents continue to dwindle, why was there so little attempt to keep me around? Was it because I strove to reassure them that there were no hints of apostasy? Was it because they, on some level, agreed with me?"

Fuck. This hits hard. This hits really hard.

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:06]
"what more do I have to be vulnerable about? I’m a thirty-year-old coyote with an awkward social manner, a strongly-held sense of faith, and an otherwise simple lifestyle. My past is unremarkable. My future holds no surprises.

Am I really so boring? Do I really have so little to worry about? Am I that privileged? An uncomfortable thought. It makes me feel shallow."

And again, fuckin' hell, Mads!

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:10]
It's weird. I was raised by two very, very staunch atheists, who were both raised incredibly Lutheran. It's strange to say I empathize with some of the struggles, but I guess I kinda do?

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:12]
"I suspect that this habit may stem from my connection with my faith. If an individual sins, knows that it is a sin, and struggles with that, it is far more uncomfortable than if an individual sins, does not consider it a sin, and cannot see the spiritual consequences that they might thus face. With the former, I struggle to mask because it is their goal, their work, their job to find their way back to the path, but with the latter, with the sinner from outside the church, they must be met with empathy, for they know not what they do.
"

There was a monk. Oooh, there's so many it's hard to remember hahaha. 

But he was confronted once by his brothers. 'Why do you help this drunken monk, why do you give him liquor and keep his habit up?'

And the monk said to them, 'He's been drinking since he was a child and has been working on this since then. This is better. This is him doing his best, and we must accept this.' 

There's so many stories of Grace and love and forgiveness and that's what i focus on

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:21]
Mmmhm!

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:22]
I'm really interested in this piece!

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:29]
\o/

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:30]
Also, I hope you understand I'm trying to be helpful not like, preaching.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:32]
I do! I'm also very curious as to your thoughts and why. Like, this isn't something I'm quite as steeped in beyond my own self-education

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:34]
I mean, there's some hints of theology that I definitely prescribe to. There's some stuff I've kinda eeeh, that's not me but it is other Faiths thing.

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:35]
But like, it's coming at it in an earnest way and that makes me happy

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:36]
And like, hitting topics of being faithful and dealing with those contractions isn't something I see a lot in Christian spaces. I've seen it in other stuff, but not Christian stuff

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:40]
Mmhm. A lot of my experience is coming from more western approaches to Christianity. Like, my research has centered around Catholicism, for this story, but also just the fact that a lot of my historical research is around early protestantism, and Dee questioning Catholicism from what is essentially a Methodist point of view still only takes a small amount of the whole picture into account.

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:46]
Mhmm

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:46]
Also, as for depicting Christ as a species, I have a couple thoughts.

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:50]
So getting different Orthodox practices (Greek, Russian, Ethiopian) when it comes to iconography which is an important part of our tradition we change price race to fit whatever the area they're based in is so Ethiopian traditions would have a black Christ East Asian traditions would have an Asian Christ etc this is specifically done to show the universality of Christ coming for all and being for all. 

The other thing I was kind of thinking a lot of times God is Not depicted or he's depicted with his face obscured in the sense that one can never fully understand and know God one can only surmise and I know what he is not. Actually the saint that I was named after has this argument that it is impossible to find what God is it is only impossible to define what God is Not. So in a species sense you could kind of do that or like what the Simpsons do of the frame is always just below his head.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:52]
Right, yeah. My initial impulse was to just never depict/describe Christ, which may still be the case, as it's rare for anyone to describe Him even when everyone's human, but having Him be indescribable is a good way to approach it.

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:54]
Does he show up directly or is it only in a crucifix?

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:54]
And imagery

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:59]
So like, my thinking was that with Dee being pretty comfortable working within what he's accepted as a framework for autism, he rarely describes looks, but does get into words a whole lot (plus a few other things, like scents and sounds), so it was probably only going to be through prayer and words. I guess my concern was: is it okay to depict Christianity in a story universe that clearly has -some- ties, but not all ties, to our world. I'm dreadfully worried about turning furry into an allegory for racism/antisemitism when there are things like interspecies relationships being seen as akin miscegination. Like I said, though, I may just be overthinking it, since so little of early Christian history will make it into a story about having a crush.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:04]
I mean, a little bit you don't control what people will say and respond to it. I think him being the Lamb makes a lot of sense though. Lamb of God, sacrificial lamb. 

People expect Christ the Lion, the conqueror, the triumphant, but he's a lamb, he's a peasant, slumming with the lowest of the lows. 

And trashing the people selling shit in the temple because fuck your greed

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:07]
Another thing, unfortunately, is that there are no herbivores, which makes that difficult c.c Still, I don't need to go into the actual reasoning behind that, in the story, especially if I'm not actually depicting.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:08]
I can keep an eye out for things that you're worried about though. :3 It felt good and evenhanded so far

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:11]
thank you so much, Kerg <3

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:12]
Thank you for like... Coming at it with good faith.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:13]
Always happy to help <3

#### Kayode

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:19]
https://zk.drab-makyo.com/writing/sawtooth/limerent-object.html is the in-progress story. Very obviously needs editing, but I want to tackle some research before I go too far.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:23]
I think that my upbringing, strict as it was, instilled in me a sense of duty - first to my parents, then to my school, then to God and my time in seminary, and now to my patients.

Why am I in this story?

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:23]
Very, very relatable.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:25]
Is he Catholic?

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:25]
Mmhm

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:25]
Okay, then celibacy makes sense.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:30]
the domain of God’s works are not the petty interpersonal relationships between individuals but rather whether or not their lives are lived in grace or in sin, and whether or not they strive to bring grace to the world around them.

I’m not sure this is correct, then again, I’m not Catholic myself.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:32]
Yeah, it's also a question of whether Dee is saying that out of feeling disillusioned with the church's doctrine of faith or not. He seems to be heading more to the Methodist side of things, judging by his reasons for leaving seminary.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:32]
But that's more research on my plate I'm happy to do ^^

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:33]
People don’t get everything right and I could easily see someone with his mindset missing the forest for the trees when it comes to the basics.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:34]
It’s a belief I can easily understand someone holding.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:34]
And I think that would have been a common perspective in the 1700s

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:34]
Mmhm. I pulled a lot of that from the-- yep!

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:35]
From the Massachusetts Bay pilgrims and their struggles with grace vs works.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:35]
(The Wordy Shipmates got me researching this yeeeears ago, and it's dogged me ever since)

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:36]
I’ll have to stop halfway through. I’ll try to pick it up again tomorrow.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:36]
No worries <3

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:37]
I don’t see any reason to change Dee’s religion.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:38]
Okay ^^ Thank you for taking a look. It means a lot to me.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:38]
Might want to mention seminary a little less. It’s getting kind of repetitive.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:38]
Of course. 🙂

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:38]
[In reply to 🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈]
Good point. Thanks!

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:38]
I am liking the story. It’s got a rambling journal feel to it.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [27.03.21 09:10]
Finally got started reading the rest of your story and Jeremy’s email signature is hilarious. 😆

Madison Scott-Clary, [27.03.21 09:15]
I thought it was a good touch ^^

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [27.03.21 09:26]
Guidance comes from God, we were taught at that school, and so any guidance that we as mere mortals might provide must perforce come in the fashion of encouraging believers to strengthen their faith and for non-believers to become believers.

This seems odd from my perspective. It’s like a merging of two very different traditions. This is what I’ve seen: Protestant tranditions tend to focus on the individual believer at the expense of other perspectives. Catholic and Orthodox traditions operate in a hierchary that is the source of truth. Catholic priests are more likely to be trained to provide guidance as part of their induction to the preisthood.

Madison Scott-Clary, [27.03.21 09:29]
Ooo, alright, that's a good catch

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [27.03.21 09:30]
I don’t know many priests but there’s a significant barrier to just joining the church. I’m pretty sure priests intern under a more senior priest.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [27.03.21 09:31]
And there are lay people like deacons that a priest will have for support and guidance in how to do their duties.

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [27.03.21 09:56]
Parishioners were to be treated with the greatest empathy while the sinners from outside were to be shunned and set aside.

Similar feelings here. This feels far more Protestant to me than Catholic. Then again, this is only what I’ve seen.

#### Fireplace chat

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:13]
So actually, as I look away from the Johannine Comma wiki page, I have a question for y'all friends. I have a character in my story who is deeply religious, but I'm a bit torn as to how to approach religion. I've mentioned seminary, a belief in God, and what sounds a liiittle like struggles with priesthood, but I'm hesitant to make it Christianity, because of the sort of parallel universe aspect of the Sawtooth universe. Thaaaat said, I've inserted quotes from Rilke with no explanation, so maybe it's not a big deal? With something like a furry story (Disappearance, The Fool, and Gigs are all from this universe), how hard should I be on myself when it comes to pairing historical accuracy with what tends to be light, slice-of-life fiction?

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:13]
[In reply to 🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈]
Mmhm, small Holy Stone drone ^^

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:13]
Height was about 100m

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:14]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
Make it whatever you like. If you decide to go with Christianity, I can read it over for you.

Sage, [24.03.21 19:15]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
It's your story and your world, and you're talking about a religion that underpins a significant portion of American culture, so do with it whatever feels right, imo.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:15]
[In reply to 🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈]
Can I drop you a link of in-progress work?

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:15]
[In reply to Sage]
They are literally in Idaho, so yeah, I think at this point, it shooould be safe? Maybe so long as I don't go too much into species..

Sage, [24.03.21 19:15]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
Species?

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:17]
I'm wary of assigning a particular species to Christ or the tribes of Israel.

Sage, [24.03.21 19:17]
Ah. In that case, just never mention it?

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:17]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
Sure

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:18]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
Lion is a popular one if you’re going to pick a species for Jesus.

Joel Kreissman, [24.03.21 19:18]
As is lamb, oddly enough

🎨🐺Kayode Lycaon🏳️‍🌈, [24.03.21 19:18]
The other good option would be a sheep, if you want to go with who Jesus was on Earth. But that is one that would need explaining.

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 19:19]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
I think you're probably ok with saying "the things about christianity that need to be true for this story to work are true in this story. the rest might be true, also, or it might be different. I leave it undefined until such time as it matters."

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:20]
I leave it undefined until such time as it matters Yeah, that's probably what I'll do.

Joel Kreissman, [24.03.21 19:20]
It could easily be a case of people claiming Jesus was “their” species. Like the guys who think Yeshua ben Yosef was white.

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 19:20]
I don't think you need to be specific about messianic species. There's possible jokes in there, maybe, like "everyone pictures Him as a lion, but that actually only dates back to the rennaisance, when this one pope, coincidentally, had an illegitimate son who was a lion"

Sage, [24.03.21 19:21]
Jesus is always played by a mongoose in movies. No one is entirely sure why, but it's just a Thing.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:22]
I'd certainly like to avoid Lion, but that also invites questions about the canonicity of the lion of Judah and oh god I'm overthinking this

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:22]
Besides, there's some in-universe species mechanics that would play with that. Either way I think leaving it unspecified is probably for the best.

Sage, [24.03.21 19:23]
If your story's set in Idaho, then Jesus lived c. 2000 years prior to your story and it's entirely possible no one knows what species he was

Sage, [24.03.21 19:24]
Perhaps the Bible just never says or uses some archaic Aramaic word that doesn't translate well.

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 19:24]
you could go Medieval and use a Pelican

Sage, [24.03.21 19:24]
Er, Greek, I guess, since it's be the New Testament.

Sage, [24.03.21 19:25]
Maybe the four Gospels each describe Jesus as a different species.

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 19:26]
i think we've spiraled off from the actual point being asked about... but it is a very interesing spiral

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:26]
I suppose, but also without hybridization, and with the fact that domesticated species are an artifact of royalty, that would likely lead to the tribes of Israel being an in-group by species, which determines Jesus's species...but this is also why I strive to avoid historical events in the universe, because it's reeeeally easy for it to come off as racist or, in this case, antisemitic.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:26]
It's good! I like the conversation :3

Sage, [24.03.21 19:27]
I think that's why it benefits keeping it either undefined or making a point about how it is literally an unknowable fact.

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:28]
If it does end up Christianity, I am both very critical of modern Christianity but also follow Christian beliefs. I am happy to be give you a beta read on anything with religious tones.

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:28]
Yeah. It may be one of those author-concerns-that's-not-a-reader-concern.

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:28]
[In reply to Sage]
Kinda like Prince of Egypt where they have the whole cast be the voice of God

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:28]
That was such a good touch

Sage, [24.03.21 19:29]
I have not seen that movie. >.>

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:29]
It's also a really great broadway show. I've only heard the soundtrack of it

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:29]
But it's very good

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 19:30]
I really enjoyed the movie, yeah.

Kerg, [24.03.21 19:33]
The cast of the broadway is like, all Arabic and Black folk (Yay, regionally appropriate) and they sound so good.

Crimson, [24.03.21 19:54]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
Oh my goodness

Crimson, [24.03.21 19:59]
Wrff, such a good noise: https://twitter.com/RageCook/status/1374917140868960259

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:14]
Mmm. Relaxing

Crimson, [24.03.21 20:44]
[ Photo ]
I offer a good-natured “Fuck you” to Penzey's

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:50]
Heh

Crimson, [24.03.21 20:51]
83 fucking cents, how do I even?

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 20:51]
do they have, like, a little bag of gummi worms?

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 20:52]
i dunno what kind of store penzey's is, so

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 20:52]
Spices!

Crimson, [24.03.21 20:55]
Also they’re one of those companies that does business fairly well from a moral perspective\

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:55]
Supporting muad'dib?

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 20:55]
[In reply to Kerg]
i suppose that would be the more ethical of the two alternatives

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:56]
... would it though? He kinda goes crazy fascist

Crimson, [24.03.21 20:56]
Vs the Harkonens?

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 20:56]
it's not great, no, but is that worse than the Beast Rabban?

Crimson, [24.03.21 20:56]
I mean two things can be bad at once. We don’t really have to support either

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:57]
[In reply to Crimson]
My friend just pointed out imperfect foods to me which is a grocery box selling foods that don't get sold to stores because blemishes or odd-looking things that are fine for eating. This is the first box service I'm completely interested in to reduce food waste

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 20:58]
the only truly moral allegiance would be to Sting's Cosmic Jockstrap, sadly taken from us too soon

Kerg, [24.03.21 20:58]
[In reply to Rob MacWolf]
I'm so fucking excited to see Batista in that role. And what Villeneuve does with that movie. He does amazing films

Crimson, [24.03.21 20:59]
[In reply to Kerg]
I gotta wonder where they get those. It’s gotta be stuff that was already selected for grocery, because anything that doesn’t make the grocery cut would typically go to processed produce

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:00]
I’ve heard good things about what comes out of Imperfect stuff though so

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:01]
[In reply to Kerg]
Me too! Bit worried about Zimmer doing the score, but I'm sure it'll work out.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:02]
It being a passion project for him too makes me feel less bad? Like, that's a dream project for him so... Eh? 

He's not my favorite for sure

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:02]
Mmhm! I just hope he tones down the vast swells of french horns and heads more toward like what he did for Interstellar.

Dwale, [24.03.21 21:02]
Christian "furs" in my setting usually depict Jesus (pbuh) as a lion/sheep hybrid.

Dwale, [24.03.21 21:03]
For whatever that's worth.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:05]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
The trailer music was dope. That WAS made for the trailer

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:06]
[In reply to Dwale]
Ooo, okay! That's very much fitting, too ^^

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:06]
[In reply to Dwale]
There's an icon that's like that in a literal sense.kinda two-face Christ, half angry, half loving. I've never been a fan of that one specifically.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:07]
But the idea is very good.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:07]
Just like, half and half Christ is like, unnerving to me

Dwale, [24.03.21 21:10]
Yeah, symbolism divorced of realism can lead down some pretty weird paths.

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:12]
I've honestly found as a very guilt-ridden child growing up I can read anger and love into any icon of him depending on my mental state at the time. (Part of my struggles)

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:22]
Ahem. 

This has been a lot of panth taking about stuff I'm usually quiet about. Really hope I didn't make people uncomfortable cause I know that's a Whole Topic.

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 21:23]
You didn't make me uncomfortable, for what it's worth. I wouldn't be where, or who, i am today if I hadn't walked my own way through exactly that, so it's not unfamiliar territory

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:32]
I just know that it's a topic people don't like, always appreciate hearing, but I have a lot of background in that

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:38]
I can but speak for myself, but I think that discussing how you relate to a symbol on a personal level is a pretty reasonable topic for sometimes. It’s certainly a very well known subject

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:40]
Right. I'm just always anxious about upsetting people especially in groups I enjoy being in

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:40]
Very much understand that feeling, yeah. Still, I very much appreciate you ^^

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:41]
[In reply to Kerg]
Ja I can relate to that. Though I guess you wouldn’t know it from how I act.

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:41]
But

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:42]
In any case I think it’s interesting to get that personal perspective

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:42]
It’s not the first time religion has come up. We do have a former seminary hoss in the group

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:44]
Fair. Anxiety just gets the best of me sometimes

Crimson, [24.03.21 21:45]
Hugs to you panth

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:50]
Good news is, I think I'm feeling okay enough that sleeping won't be an issue like it has been

Madison Scott-Clary, [24.03.21 21:53]
Yay!

Kerg, [24.03.21 21:58]
[ 😄 Sticker ]

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:08]
I’m catching up on the chat about furry Jesus — inteerestingly, I just recorded a story by Stephen Coghlan about kiiiinda that

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:10]
A riff on The Rapture, where instead of vanishing, some folks changed into Morphs. Following one such person in particular, a trans man who Morphed into a sheep, and follows the advice of his childhood invisible friend, Shepherd, who’s coded as Jesus.

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:14]
[In reply to Joel Kreissman]
Biblical reference, no?

Izixs, [24.03.21 23:15]
*has flashbacks to playing Laid to Rest on Guitar Hero 2*

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:17]
[In reply to Madison Scott-Clary]
How about an extinct quasicryptid? The *name* of the species is known, but it’s not unambiguous which known species that name correlates to.

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:18]
Scientific consensus says “aurochs”, but some scholars protest that this is a mistranslation, that the New Testament was originally written in Greek where a “sacrifice” was, in Greek imagery, a “bull”

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 23:18]
[In reply to Khaki]
So like... "Ye shall behold the coming of the Son of Manticore?"

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:19]
Ha 🙂

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:19]
Mmm, more like… what fruit grew from the Tree of Knowledge?

Izixs, [24.03.21 23:20]
Plutoniumberries

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 23:20]
oh yeah, fair! cause lots of depictions meant for low-literacy populations showed an apple, because that was the only sort of fruit that grew in every climate of europe so they knew everyone would recognize it

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:20]
Right, and it grows at picking-height for a standing adult!

Izixs, [24.03.21 23:21]
Gotta keep ye faith relatable when literacy is under 50%.

Rob MacWolf, [24.03.21 23:23]
i'm still gonna argue for pelican, just for the art history deep cut

Kerg, [24.03.21 23:24]
[In reply to Izixs]
That's also why in Orthodoxy we've used iconography. Tells the story through pictures that are easy to understand.

Kerg, [24.03.21 23:27]
[In reply to Khaki]
I was almost thinking the crazy way seraphim's are described "six-winged, many eyes"

Khaki, [24.03.21 23:27]
[In reply to Dwale]
Hence the multi-armed Hindu deities: they don’t “actually” have multiple armed but they’re required artistically to show the deity holding all the symbolic objects associated with them, with equal importance

#### Discord

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Makyo — Yesterday at 10:53 AM

Anyhow, story I'm working has a major plot element of the main character struggling with his faith. One of the weird things about writing about such in furry is trying to make Christianity work in the context of a world without hybridization. Makes some sense to have the Jewish people be mostly one species, but then you have to grapple with antisemitism automatically leading to speciesism and also, circumcision: uh...
So currently I'm bending over backwards to make the story clearly about Catholicism without mentioning specifics because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Makyo — Yesterday at 11:09 AM

Also, the story of Noah gets weird

Having talked it through with others, they've suggested things like "the prophets, including Jesus" are of unspecified species or everyone perceives them as their own

Amdusias — Yesterday at 12:27 PM

IMO that tracks with how Jesus works in the actual US.

Actually brown, but white in white churches and black in black churches.

Makyo — Yesterday at 12:28 PM

Yep, that makes sense

So it could be a thing of just glossing over some of the details that are inconvenient.

Which, at the risk of being insensitive, is rather on-brand, at least in evangelical Christianity

Amdusias — Yesterday at 12:31 PM

Now I realize that, despite having been to Korea, I've never been into a Korean Baptist church, so I have no idea if Korean Jesus also exists.

Makyo — Yesterday at 12:32 PM

Huh, same. I mean, we sang in several Korean churches, but I don't remember the imagery

Amdusias — Yesterday at 12:37 PM

Is this the kind of story in which circumcision would come up? That seems like the sort of thing you would just like...have a mental worldbuilding note about.

Makyo — Yesterday at 12:37 PM

Nah, thankfully not!

Amdusias — Yesterday at 12:39 PM

But yeah, the more superficial elements are a little harder to grasp with, I'd imagine.

Especially considering uh, the complicated past of "Jewish as religious identity vs cultural identity vs racial identity"

also hi I'm staring at builds and meowing way too much about this

Makyo — Yesterday at 12:43 PM

Yeah, if I keep the story focused on faith, works, and church, I don't have to think too much on those.
```

