TricornKing — Yesterday at 10:59 PM
I never know how to feel about things like this. There's a part of me that wants to respond back about this idea that "Satan was talking too much sense," but I also realize that sentiments like this are born from a traumatic experience with one form of Christianity, and it makes me feel genuinely sad that the positive experience I had growing up was the exception rather than the rule
TricornKing — Yesterday at 11:07 PM
Especially when there are takes like these, which to me ring far truer than "Satan was talking a lot of sense." ESPECIALLY since the last 4 years have shown us with the MAGA and Trumpist crowd how easy it is to appeal to selfishness in people
TricornKing — Today at 1:07 AM
I don't know, I just...feel heartbroken? About this, that something that has been such a blessing and comfort in my life, was abused and twisted into something that left a man that I respect and admire so traumatized. It just makes me sad.
Yuudachi — Today at 2:40 AM
I mean, religion has always had the capacity of being used as a cudgel
https://twitter.com/happyroadkill/status/1400171433666527234?s=21
☠️ HAPPY ☠️ (@happyroadkill)
there is a special place in art hell for writers who mangle their entire story at the last minute just because some guy on youtube correctly guessed where the plot was going
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Twitter•Yesterday at 12:24 PM
I swear it was a mistake to abandon Knox’s Decalogue and SS Van Dine’s 20 rules
Yeah they are outdated but they provided a decent framework from which to build upon
TricornKing — Today at 2:48 AM
Oh I realize that. It just makes me sad that that happens, because the fallout is someone having a traumatic association with something that is deeply meaningful to me, that's been a help and a blessing
Yuudachi — Today at 2:50 AM
My own experience with religion is pretty unsavory
I don’t associate with a good portion of the family after they started to associate with the “sin caused 9/11” dogma
TricornKing — Today at 2:59 AM
Ah yes, the "Pat Robertson 700 Club ideology," I'm familiar
Lamp — Today at 3:04 AM
I mean sin did cause 9/11 just probably not in the way they mean lol
Kivutar — Today at 3:13 AM
I'll confess that I stay here because this server/podcast and Slacktivist is the most Christianity I can handle and it's really, really hard work to do so
I don't identify as a Satanist but I hang out with a lot of them and I think I can discuss this idea of Satan
Mainly he's seen an avatar of sticking it the the Man
Standing up and saying "this is wrong"
Even against all odds
When you look at how thoroughly much of Christianity has been coopted to justify and abuse power, it's easy to see the appeal
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 3:27 AM
I wish Pat Robertson would just fucking die already
Mean old bastards really do live forever I guess
just wants some red stuff — Today at 3:28 AM
every now and then i comfort myself by reading an imprecatory psalm or three
"hey god come kill this dude. kthxbye"
AcetyleneLamp — Today at 3:40 AM
@Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor He's one of the main people who represents everything I hate about American fundie Christianity. I don't fault anyone wishing he was no longer alive because he's someone who's done a lot of actual harm in the world, not just someone with opinions I dislike.
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 3:41 AM
Exactly
Plus once he's dead they can immediately cancel The 700 Club
Since iirc the contract is with Robertson personally
AcetyleneLamp — Today at 3:42 AM
Freeform only still shows it because they're required too, I bet they're quietly looking forward to Pat Robertson kicking the bucket.
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 3:43 AM
Yeah exactly
They're contractually obligated
But the contract is with Robertson himself iirc
AcetyleneLamp — Today at 3:44 AM
Pat Robertson is one of the people Frank Zappa scorched in a song from the 80s called "Jesus Thinks You're a Jerk." Sad to think that Zappa's gone but grogger-worthy people mentioned in the song like Robertson and Jim Bakker are still around.
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 3:44 AM
Mean old bastards live forever
TricornKing — Today at 4:07 AM
That's the thing, I think, that separates what I grew up with versus what I found after moving to the States. Because, like so many other things, Christianity has been co-opted and used by White Supremacy and American Imperialism to justify and glorify them
Whereas meanwhile, what I grew up with I'm Austria? The Anglican Christ Church in Vienna was a truly multicultural church; I remember seeing what I think were ambassadors and their families from various African nations in attendance. They were so regal looking, it was like seeing Tolkien Elves like Galadriel and Elrond.
Then of course there was the Catholicism of the Austrians around me, which was used to justify the social welfare programs Austria had. I remember listening to the weekly religion classes, and how compassion and service to others was emphasized
Then finally...my mother, who grew up under Baptist pastor parents, who saw what church communities could be like across all the Midwest and finally Georgia. Who vowed that she would raise her children almost the exact opposite way she was raised. Emphasizing compassion and being there for others, like what Jesus ACTUALLY SAID in the Gospels.
Because of all that, what I see with Satan isn't so much a character who "sticks it to The Man," because...that's what Jesus is to me?
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:09 AM
You've struck at the heart of it
Racism is deeply entrenched in a lot of American culture
We're now rooting out the less blatant stuff after it became bad to be openly racist.
Kivutar — Today at 4:10 AM
Another factor tbh is the deeply entrenched misogyny
Especially for me
And I don't think Catholicism is anywhere near past that
TricornKing — Today at 4:11 AM
Oh believe me, I am absolutely not excusing Catholicism on the misogyny front
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:12 AM
Anglicanism is way ahead in this regard
Lots of woman preachers
TricornKing — Today at 4:17 AM
But what I'm trying to get at is, the appeal, for me, of Jesus is the idea that God incarnated into a human life, to live like us and be with us, not as like, a prince or king or emperor, but as a working class man. Who called out those in power, because they were using their position and authority to take advantage of others.
That, to me, is who and what t Jesus is. Whereas Satan meanwhile...attempts to "rehabilitate" him feel like I'm being made to read that "Lex Luthor: Man of Steel" comic series? The one where Lex is the main character, and he and the story try to "justify" Lex's worldview and his vendetta against Superman...and instead the whole story comes across as the most damning indictment against Lex Luthor and everything he stands for
Kivutar — Today at 4:19 AM
I feel you there
I think what's going on is that to those of us who experienced a different side of Christianity, that whole image of Jesus feels like... when a politician does the whole "man of the people" thing and it fools no one
Giving lip service to an ideal far removed from the reality on the ground
Or worse, like a Kim Jong-Un style "look, I suffer with you" (Narrator: he didn't) and meanwhile relentlessly punishing the slightest dissent beyond all proportion
TricornKing — Today at 4:27 AM
It honestly feels like I'm living this picture in real life. And that just...it frustrates and grieves me?
Like, I KNOW that that idea of Jesus you described, Kivutar, is not the truth. I KNOW this. But I refuse to deny that so many others have been traumatized by people who use the "Jesus" you described to justify their own Tyranny against others
Yuudachi — Today at 4:30 AM
well... think about it this way, how do you think we feel while living under jeezus ?
TricornKing — Today at 4:31 AM
Probably much the way I feel? So absolutely disgusted that you (meaning also me) haven't gone to an actual church in years, not even for Easter or Christmas or any other religious holiday
Kivutar — Today at 4:32 AM
I don't really appreciate that
I no longer consider myself Christian and have not for years
Nor do I have any desire to visit a church
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:33 AM
Most people swallow Jeezus unquestioningly because they're taught not to question
Sola fide bullshit
Yuudachi — Today at 4:33 AM
I've mentioned it in the past that the best way I can describe myself is "Naytheist by attrition"
Kivutar — Today at 4:33 AM
This may be a phrasing issue
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:33 AM
I am atheist by disinterest
I never had any interest in church because it wasn't fun and therefore I didn't give a shit lol
I would act out and eventually my parents gave up
TricornKing — Today at 4:35 AM
I apologize, what I was trying to convey was...I guess feeling so disgusted, so alienated, by it all that, for whatever reason, you (general you) divorce yourself from it?
Yuudachi — Today at 4:35 AM
i just can't come around to believe with all the bad shit going on in the world
hence my naytheist stance
Kivutar — Today at 4:36 AM
I'm having trouble parsing that Tricorn
Are you disgusted that we're alienated?
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:36 AM
The question of evil is what's bugging you, Yuu?
Yuudachi — Today at 4:37 AM
no, they're disgusted by what caused the alienation
Kivutar — Today at 4:37 AM
Ah
Lamp — Today at 4:37 AM
Gonna start a new religion
Kivutar — Today at 4:37 AM
That's completely fair then
Lamp — Today at 4:37 AM
We're gonna use the Bible but we're removing everything written by Paul
And instead using Saint Young Men
TricornKing — Today at 4:38 AM
No no?! I'm saying that I fully understand why you'd be so disgusted and alienated by what is preached in these churches that you would decide to leave the faith altogether!
I feel disgusted too! I feel alienated too! The only reason why I'm still hanging on to my faith, personally, is because of my VASTLY DIFFERENT experience growing up in Austria, growing up with a mother who explicitly chose not to be like her Fundamentalist, Baptist parents!
Lamp — Today at 4:40 AM
Might be weird to include Buddha in the Bible but we'll work it out
Yuudachi — Today at 4:40 AM
I guess... and I hate the excuses
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:40 AM
Most people can't afford to live in good places lol
And yeah
Of course the Old Testament is full of people doing genocides in God's name, including in the last episode of this very show iirc
TricornKing — Today at 4:42 AM
Honestly, at this point in my life, my "Bible time" as it were is based almost exclusively on listening to the podcast, talking with you all, and browsing through extremely liberal religion blogs on Tumblr, because I genuinely get more spiritual fulfillment from those sources than I ever could at any church around here
Like, talking with you all here? About my sadness that the faith that gives me comfort and strength has been used to hurt and abuse others like a cudgel? That means a lot to me. The fact that you all treat my thoughts with validity and compassion, means a lot to me
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:47 AM
Basically any positive thing can also be used to hurt people
Kivutar — Today at 4:47 AM
Yeah
See also "family"
It's the worst when good things get corrupted
Yuudachi — Today at 4:51 AM
yeah
TricornKing — Today at 4:52 AM
It is. It absolutely is. It's why I try, with all my heart, to be loving, compassionate and understanding to others. Because it is my way of witnessing, to try and make right the harm others have caused with a distorted and mauled form of my faith.
Yuudachi — Today at 4:53 AM
one thing that bothers me is the argument you can't be a nice person without religion
TricornKing — Today at 4:53 AM
I can't undo the harm and hurt. But I want to at least try to make it right.
Yuudachi — Today at 4:53 AM
specially when we see all the bad stuff done by religious people
including your own family
"where are atheist gonna get their morals? how will they be able to tell good from evil?"
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:54 AM
It's all gaslighting
TricornKing — Today at 4:54 AM
EXACTLY
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:55 AM
I can bring up hundreds of morally reprehensible actions taken by characters in the Bible who believed in God
Kivutar — Today at 4:55 AM
Probably the seed of all the distortion is the idea that those actions are justifiable tbh
TricornKing — Today at 4:56 AM
More than likely that's exactly it, yeah
I will be honest, I have seen the spirit of God in more people who identify as either atheist, agnostic, or simply just not Christian, than I have in a lot of people who go on and on about how "great of a Christian" they are
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 4:59 AM
People who practice performative faith are just awful
TricornKing — Today at 5:00 AM
It drives me up the wall, it's so awful
Lamp — Today at 5:01 AM
Clown shit (up the wall)
TricornKing — Today at 5:02 AM
But yeah...I just was feeling sad, seeing those tweets earlier. Because it grieves me that so many people have been hurt by something that has not only been a blessing for me, but has genuinely saved my life at different points
TricornKing — Today at 5:03 AM
I mean, there's several instances in the Hebrew Bible of priests and prophets of God that weren't Israelites, Buddha could be explained as "Oh, he's a Prophet of God in India" or something
Kivutar — Today at 5:03 AM
I want to say thank you for acknowledging that, it means a lot
I have a lot of Christian friends who get super defensive and a little no true scotsman-y about it and that's pretty upsetting
You're doing the opposite
Lamp — Today at 5:04 AM
Honestly I'd be inclined to just
Not feel the need to explain it
TricornKing — Today at 5:17 AM
I know what it's like, to go through something traumatic, and have people dismiss it as nothing. I've seen and listened to too many, far too many, accounts of trauma and abuse people have suffered through, that were "justified" by a monstrous distortion of my faith.
How could I call myself a Christian, how could I call myself a man, if I saw all that and treated the hurt and pain as illegitimate? Pulled that "no true Scotsman" line? I would bear that mark of shame forever. Especially when the evidence of that trauma is so plain to see for anyone who has a true heart for others?
All I can say is, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you were hurt, that the thing I love and draw strength from was used to justify hurting you. I can't undo it, but I want to at least try and make it right, by giving the unconditional love that I've experienced from my God back to you. Because that to me, is a far better way of witnessing my faith to others than badgering and bullying people into it.
samwise (no pronouns pls) — Today at 6:06 AM
It's really meaningful to me for you to say that rn. I draw love and strength from Christianity and it also has been used to justify hurting and dehumanizing me. It's really hard, especially in June, and I really appreciate that these types of conversations have a space on this discord
Kivutar — Today at 6:12 AM
I'm not queer, and I know queer people have it worse in many ways, but it's difficult to grow up in a religion and society where the structure, hierarchy, lots of the Bible, two thousand years of writing, the early church fathers, and your own family hates you and your female body with such viciousness
And the response to that is always "but Mary!" which is really gaslighty
Because while I recognize that lots of people derive comfort from Mary, from my perspective her story is one where the almost universal reverence for motherhood is completely stripped and sanitized so prudish and misogynistic men could be comfortable
To the point where she's simultaneously an impossible standard and an experience of womanhood that's completely alien to actual women
just wants some red stuff — Today at 7:09 AM
that and the fact that all the language used to describe her sounds like the text on a not-too-spicy taco kit
tender, meek, mild
Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor — Today at 7:09 AM
Lol
just wants some red stuff — Today at 7:09 AM
slowroast for 3 hours at 150C
TricornKing — Today at 7:32 AM
You are absolutely right in saying that. Same as with Mary Magdalene, it's all done because insecure, egotistical men would rather put women down than use it as a chance to rise up and better themselves
I wish I knew what to say to make it be even a little bit better. I know a comfort for me has been reading posts by extremely liberal women who identify as Christians, who go absolutely feral in happiness over figures like Mary Magdalene or Mother Mary.
I'm sorry I don't have much else to suggest. I'm starting to fall asleep, and I'm having trouble typing this on my phone.
Kivutar — Today at 7:33 AM
It's not on you personally to say anything *that fixes things, discourse and listening are enough